Listeners and readers, you are in for a massive treat! One of our very favorite guests, the amazing Dr. Tania Israel, is back on the pod! This time she is talking about her new book: “Facing the Fracture: How to Navigate the Challenges of Living in a Divided Nation.”
Karen, Katie, and Tania chat about what we can all do to feel better as we enter this election season, minute-by-minute tips on how to handle conversations that can feel uncomfortable around politics, and how to handle the hysteria in the wake of the most recent presidential debate.
Resources from today’s episode:
– Pre-order Dr. Tania Israel’s book here: https://taniaisrael.com/facing-the-fracture-book/
– The episode of the podcast Hidden Brain on polarization that Tania discussed: https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/more-divided-than-ever/
– Check out A Braver Way podcast, which Tania also mentioned: https://braverangels.org/abraverway/
– Read about the Building Civic Bridges Act: https://library.mormonwomenforethicalgovernment.org/call-to-action-the-building-civic-bridges-act-h-r-6843-s-4530/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwnK60BhA9EiwAmpHZw2NiBCa3p63FeZ1vvvSw4UiMfRG4DARSbHwLnK3WfbR9McZZYkpEiRoCknwQAvD_BwE
– Check out the Listen First Project: https://www.listenfirstproject.org/pledge
TRANSCRIPT:
Katie Morell:
Hi, Karen. It’s so, so, so wonderful to see you today. I am so excited about this episode. I’m like amped.
Karen Hawkins:
Katie, agreed, amped slash calmer than I have been in a while.
Katie Morell:
Same. Yeah. I just, I, I mean, honestly, if Tania started doing guided meditations, I would be the first to sign up because even if they were guided meditations about the political divide, I think I would do it. Seriously. Tania, hit me up.
Karen Hawkins:
A thousand percent. I’m gonna go back and listen to her Calm. Yes. It’s not, I forget what it is on Calm. I’m gonna go listen to it.
Katie Morell:
Oh, that’s right. She actually does that. I completely forgot. That’s amazing. Everyone, look Tania up onto Calm. And if you don’t know who Tania is, Dr. Tania Israel has been a long-time guest, an incredible like friend to us. She’s honestly one of our favorite people. It’s just been so wonderful to have her on the pod over the years. Um, we started talking with her when she, um, came out with her, her book during the 2020 election “Beyond Your Bubble: How to Connect Across the Political Divide, Skills and Strategies for Conversations That Work.” And then on August 13th, you can pre-order Now. Look it up, we will show it or we will have a link in the show notes, but legit, seriously, look it up. And pre-order, it’s her new book is called “Facing the Fracture, how to Navigate the Challenges of Living in a Divided Nation.” And honestly, Karen, like this was a very uplifting conversation and I don’t think there are that many uplifting conversations about what’s happening right now.
Karen Hawkins:
Exactly. And I feel like it’s not uplifting in a gaslighting way. No. It, it’s uplifting in a, like grounded and science and like human being and like, let’s all have a reality check kind of way, which, yes, very refreshing. And I, I just feel like it’s so easy to get lost in our own thoughts, in our own cycles and our own conversation patterns and all the things. And I feel like Tania is such an important disruptor for me of like all of the nonsense that I just like allow to happen without thinking them through.
Katie Morell:
Well said. Absolutely. I just feel like she’s, she’s like a really important voice right now. Like she’s a voice that we really, really need. So, so yeah, everybody, we’re so thrilled that Tania’s back. Tania, I hope you’re listening. We love you and we so appreciate every single time that you come and talk to us. So enjoy Dr. Tania Israel. Hello, Dr. Tania Israel.
Katie Morell:
I am so, so, so, so, so, so, so happy to see you. Happy July.
Dr. Tania Israel:
Thank you. I am so delighted to be back. Thank you so much for having me.
Karen Hawkins:
Oh my gosh. I mean the timing always is perfect with you, Tania. Like, it’s just that our stars always align, but this conversation in particular is, woo, we all really need this right now. No pressure. But, uh, we need you to solve all of our problems in the next 50 minutes. OK. Go.
Dr. Tania Israel:
I am ready, .
Katie Morell:
OK. Amazing. Let’s dive right in. OK, so congratulations on the upcoming launch. It sounds like it’s being your book, your new book is being released on August 13th of your new, your new book, “Facing The Fracture, How to Navigate the Challenges of Living in a Divided Nation.” Um, friends, it’s available for pre-order right now. We’ll put a link in the show notes, so please grab it. This is gonna be a really great tool as we’re going into election season. But Tania, we’d love to dive in into, into the backstory. What, what is the backstory of this book? You know, it sounds like you’ve been writing about this stuff for a long time. We’ve talked to you about your previous books, but this one sounds really interesting.
Dr. Tania Israel:
Well, as you all know, I wrote a book about how to have dialogue across political lines. And that came out right before the 2020 election or 2020 election. And that was really helpful for people who wanted to have dialogue. But then I kept hearing from people who were like, I don’t wanna talk to those people. Or dialogue just wasn’t their main issue. And they’re like, but I’m still kind of losing it, and what do you got from me? And I’m like, oh, right. People are experiencing a lot of stress around political division and it doesn’t all have to do with how to talk to other people. ’cause some of it has to do with like, how do you talk to your radio? Or how do you talk to the thoughts in your head? Or, you know, just all of the things that, you know, people are doom scrolling and like, there’s so much stuff that’s happening that it’s like, what are, what are we supposed to do just in our individual path to be able to, you know, not only get through this time, but I actually think that there are opportunities that this presents us to be able to thrive, believe it or not.
I know that sounds overly optimistic.
Katie Morell:
I mean, I mean, both of us are kind of just like, huh.
Karen Hawkins:
Exactly like, I don’t, you’re using these words and I don’t, I don’t know what they mean in the context of what’s happening right now.
Katie Morell:
A hundred percent. The word thrive even coming up in this conversation. Not sure. So please, yes.
Dr. Tania Israel:
Well, tell me first of all, like, how is political distress showing up in your lives?
Karen Hawkins:
I mean, it, for me, I will just jump in to say it’s just like a free-floating anxiety that like, I will forget what’s happening. You know, I’ve had a lot going on in my personal life. I just, or will be out actually having fun or catching up with friends. And then it’s just this thing that sneaks up just like, oh, but wait, , like, things are gonna go south. Or, you know, you, you know, headlines I have, unfortunately, I have news alerts set up on my phone, and so that just kind of attacks me at random times. I think it’s just this, yeah, just like, like I said, this generalized, like, oh God, what is gonna happen and what can I even do, other than panic?
Katie Morell:
I feel the exact same way. I mean, I, I find that like, I don’t walk around, at least right now, I’m not walking around. I think I might be in the future, but in a constant state of panic. I’m not feeling that right now. But I am feeling like, actually this happened this morning. I get the Sunday New York Times delivered to my house and I was reading it over coffee this morning, and it was the one of the front page pieces about how Biden is, um, not basically like, you know, everyone’s saying like, is he gonna step down? And that kind of, and like, and just saying like, he’s not going to step down. And it talks about the George Stephanopoulos interview that he did on Sunday or on Saturday, excuse me. And, um, honestly, Tania, I actually started getting short of breath and that was the weirdest thing my body started reacting because I was like, oh, I actually wanna read this article. And then my maybe four paragraphs in, I literally had, I’d be like, oh, I don’t feel good, like physically, and so I need to put it down. And I think that’s the thing that’s, it’s, I’m scared. That’s how I’m experiencing this. Yeah.
Dr. Tania Israel:
What you two are talking about, I’m hearing this from so many people that, you know, sometimes there’s something external that brings it up like a news alert, like a lot of people, the phone alerts that’s happening. Um, or it could just be any conversation that you have with any person. You’re not only experiencing your own anxiety, but it’s like other people’s anxiety. It’s like you can’t have a conversation without somebody bringing up something going on with politics. And probably like the name of a candidate that rhymes with, um, rump, um, . So that just, it’s just like, it’s, it’s everywhere. You just can’t get away from it. And so the, what you’re talking about with the free floating anxiety, with the shortness of breath, what’s happening is this is not good for us. This is bad for our physical health, our mental health, and the health of our democracy and our communities and our families and all of that.
So that’s why I was like, I gotta do something here. I gotta, I gotta try to help. So what this book does, I’m gonna give you just a little encapsulated overview of what’s in here because it turns out that there are things that we can do at a bunch of different levels. But when you start with dialogue and people are like, I don’t wanna start with dialogue, like, what, what else needs to happen and what needs to happen before that or instead of that. So the first thing is that we are receiving so much polarizing input. We’re receiving so much about how the other side is, you know, um, hateful, um, wants to do us harm, is, um, doesn’t care about, um, democratic principles, is willing to like over, um, overlook all of the traditional ways we kind of keep our society together. And, you know, all of these like really negative motivations that the other side has.
And just that we are, that the chasm between the two sides is like huge. So we’re hearing this constantly. We’re hearing, um, you know, the news really thrives on stories about conflict and then we, um, like click on them and we follow them and we’re really interested in conflict. So there’s this sort of relationship between us and the news and social media is the same way, you know, and everything’s just getting amplified so much around this in social media. And then, um, in our own minds, we have these cognitive biases that cause us to see other people as extreme and illogical and hostile and immoral, all of these things. And it’s not to say that there isn’t anyone like on another side who is hostile and immoral and illogical and extreme, but most people are not. So one of the things that we need to do, just in order to be accurate in our understanding of the world, is to turn down the volume on polarizing input to reduce that polarizing input.
So just the way we deal with news. So rather than having it on all the time and tuning out occasionally, let’s just tune in occasionally. Let’s stay informed, let’s get a bite-sized piece of it, and then you can set it aside for the rest of the day. There aren’t things that can’t wait till the next day. And for the most part, same thing with social media. You know, be intentional about how we go into it. Um, like, like think about what you’re trying to get out of your social media, how long you wanna spend there, go do that and then stop. So these are, um, and, and then just knowing what our distortions are, how do we correct for those? So that the first part of the book is just how do we reduce the volume on polarizing input and actually create a more accurate understanding of the world and of how threatening or not threatening the world is and how polarized, um, uh, our society is.
So that’s the first thing. ’cause actually we’re not as polarized as we think we are, so that’s a huge piece of it. Um, so that’s part one. Once we’ve kind of let that settle a little bit, it puts us in a calmer space where we can then say, are there things that we need to build in terms of our individual capacity, um, resilience for example, that’s gonna help us to figure out how do we deal when we’re having shortness of breath or, um, when our muscles are tense or we can’t sleep at night, you know, how do we deal with that fight flight or freeze response? Um, which which we’re encountering, uh, just with all of, you know, you see a lawn sign or someone’s hat or someone’s bumper sticker. So how do we deal with, with, um, building resilience to be able to face the challenges of being in a divided nation?
And are there ways that we can actually broaden our minds, um, to perspective take and to be able to develop more intellectual humility to not say that we’re wrong, but to say like, can we broaden our perspective so we can actually understand where someone else might be coming from that’s different from ours? And then can we develop compassion? So that’s the second part is like building these individual capacities. And then the third part’s really about strengthening connection. So then we get into, once you’ve done all that, then maybe you’ll wanna have a conversation with other people. Um, but you can get through two thirds of the book without ever interacting with another human being. So just do it all on your own. Um, but then if you do wanna talk to other people, how do you do that effectively? And then there’s a chapter on how do we participate effectively in community and country, and that’s really gonna help to strengthen our democracy also.
And then there’s a whole chapter on the bridging movement because it turns out that there’s literally over 500 organizations that are working on bridging divides and strengthening our democracy. And most people don’t know anything about them. And it gives me so much hope and gives other people so much hope when I, when I share that. So that’s really, it’s a three part formula, and there’s skills along the way and there’s tons of evidence that supports this. I have like over 250 citations in this book, but it’s written in this very accessible way. So it’s all evidence-based, accessible, and I want readers to come out of this feeling informed, optimistic, and empowered.
Karen Hawkins:
I mean, I, I feel better already, Tania, to be honest with you, . Like, you just like, again, like opened all of these portals in my brain. So even just that description was very helpful. And there’s like, one thing I wanna pull out of the million things I’m thinking about it is like just the genius of this, the three parts, right? And that you’re addressing the thing that everybody, as soon as you tell people to tune out to reduce your news intake, we all have this like wave of guilt. No, but I have to stay informed. I have to stay stressed out. This is also terrible. I have to keep myself disregulated all the time. And what you’re saying is like, all right, slow your down. And I just really appreciate, I don’t know if you can talk a little bit about like how you landed on addressing that thing. Like this formula really addresses all of the things that we have that come up when we think about these things.
Dr. Tania Israel:
Yes. I can talk about how I got here, um, which is that after I wrote that first book and I was out there talking with lots of people, talking with you all, so on podcasts, but giving presentations and things, and I would hear from people like what the gaps were. Like what did, had I not addressed in that book? And what were people struggling with? Whenever people are talking about how they’re distressed about politics, I always ask that question I ask you, which is, how is this showing up in your life? And you know, what, what’s going on with this? And so I got to hear more from people. I listened a ton and then I was on an airplane, this was like a year and a half ago, I’m on an airplane and I am, um, and I was doing some writing for work and then I was done with the thing I was doing, and then I still had like a few hours left on the plane and I just kept writing.
And I honestly had no idea that I was gonna write another book on this topic. But by the time the plane landed, I had a 10 chapter structure and I had, I had like material for each of the chapters because it turns out I had been writing little snippets of things that I was sticking in various places on my computer and in presentations that I did and in op-eds that never got published and whatever. I had a bunch of stuff and it, and it just was this, and I’m like, I don’t know where this came from. I feel like my muse must have had a, a ticket for that seat next to me on the airplane because it, it just came out. And it’s pretty much like what came out by the time I landed is what turned into the book.
Katie Morell:
Wow. Tania, thank you for explaining that. It’s so incredible. I mean it’s just, it’s so magical, the creative muse I think. Mm-Hmm. And like, it just, and it’s also like your creative muse showed up after you did so much work and it’s like, it almost, it feels like, it like was like this confluence of like, here we go. Like, it’s like you had the time it sounds like on that flight.
Dr. Tania Israel:
I know. I love airplanes. I think you all were talking about like working on airplanes and Yeah. In one of your recent episodes, but I get so much stuff done on airplanes, it’s fantastic because I never buy the internet, so it’s like I can just focus.
Katie Morell:
Yes. Well, I so appreciate this and I, I also, like Karen said, love the concept of this structure because I think that there is something already overwhelming about what’s happening. And so to think that we can pick up your book and there can be these bite-size, you know, pieces that we can digest at our own pace, but also that there’s actually structure to it, I think is much more, at least it calms my system to think that I can actually digest something like that versus like a long narrative book. I, I just love the idea of that structure. So I think in terms of resilience, I’d love to talk to you about that because you know, the turning down the volume you said on the things that you’re consuming and that kind of thing, I think is, you know, challenging in general in this climate.
But I will say after the most recent presidential debate, um, it’s been really challenging. Like I think a lot of people would agree, but like for me, um, I’m just, I’m honestly like, I know I said earlier, terrified, but like, I’m like really scared. Like I’m like, I don’t know, I, I’m, I’m wondering how to build that resilience like outside of, you know, um, definitely like, uh, being more mindful of my news consumption. Are there any tips that you can offer people when they’re thinking about what happened during that debate when they’re thinking about how to kind of calm themselves down and I guess the parter. So that’s the first part. And the second part is what have you been hearing since the debate, if anything?
Dr. Tania Israel:
I have been hearing so much stress. I mean just, and, and, and just kind of constant thinking about it. I mean, I’ve been experiencing this myself, so I am not exempt from any of this, by the way. Um, so one of the things that I did, because like there’s the debate and then there’s this very long like holiday weekend and I’m like, what am I gonna do? And I was like, oh, um, I’m gonna listen to, there’s all, there’s a great series on Hidden Brain podcast that’s about, um, that’s about polarization and about like how we deal with this divided country. And I was like, lemme just like deep dive into that and I’m gonna listen to that for a few days and thank you Shankar ante for taking us through like, you know, deep dives. And that’s one of the things that I’ve realized is that listening to long form kinds of things tend to do better for me than like the little snippets of things that social media tends to produce because social media tends to do very emotionally activating material.
Oh, A Braver Way is another podcast that I listen to that’s all about connecting across the divide and they’ve got fantastic episodes. So I put things in my ears that are not the emotionally activating content, but that are really meaningful in this moment that are really gonna be helpful. And that’s where I’d say that this is opportunities to thrive too, because it’s like, oh, we as a society have to figure out how we’re gonna deal with social media. Like social media has become such a driver of us, but the crazy thing is we’re the consumers we’re actually making decisions. It turns out the algorithms are not driving us as much as we are engaging with social media in such a way that the algorithms capitalize on, but it’s all our own choices. And so this is a great moment for us to think, oh, what do I wanna do right now?
And how is this gonna benefit me, not only as it relates to political division, but other things as well. So that’s one of the things that I’ve been doing is just like, I’m gonna listen to different things. I’m gonna learn about Olivia Rodrigo who I’ve never really listened to before, but now I’m gonna just start listening to her albums while I play backgammon. You know, it’s like doing some different kinds of things like that can be useful. Um, so that’s the first piece. But in terms of resilience, the fight, flight or freeze response, we know things that help the body. Um, we know that deep breathing can help the body. We know things that, you know, exercise is good for the body. So there are things that we can do physiologically that are gonna be helpful to us. Also, in terms of resilience, one of the things that, um, we can get into, sometimes we can get ourselves stuck in some of the ways that we respond to things.
Um, one of the ways we can respond to things is through anger and hostility. And although that can feel really satisfying in the moment, turns out that ultimately not so good for our health. Same thing with, you know, sometimes we’ll we’ll kind of see ourselves in a really vulnerable place and kind of think about ourselves as as victim in a situation. And certainly people, you know, experience trauma, people are victimized. Um, and if we are seeing ourselves in a victim role across all situations, it turns out that’s not actually a healthy place to be either. So that there are some ways that we’ve been responding to political division that aren’t healthy ways for us to respond to anything. In fact, it turns out, oh, there’s this trauma researcher George Bonano, and I heard him on a podcast and he was like, yeah, I’m the most cited trauma researcher and nobody’s doing what I’m telling them to do.
And it was so frustrating. And I’m like, oh, OK. So then I went and I read his stuff ’cause I was like, what does he say to do? And one of the things that he talks about is flexibility because there’s a whole narrative out there right now about boundaries. Like you have to have boundaries. Like, here are the people you shouldn’t have in your life, defriend all of your, you know, racist relatives and here’s the, you know, signs that the person you’re, um, you’re, you’re in a relationship with or your best friend is a narcissist and why you should create boundaries and get away from them. OK. So it’s really important that we know how to create boundaries. It’s also really important that we know how to face challenges. If we’re only able to do one of those and not the other, then we’re not setting ourselves up for success.
So it’s really important we can do both and then that we can make decisions about which of those we wanna do in any situation. So that’s really where we’re gonna get the resilience related to challenges of living in a divided country. Like if you’re like, oh, my family is in a really different place than I am politically, am I going to just avoid all of them all the time? Am I going to always subject myself to just, you know, they’re baiting me or am I going to like learn how to deal with encountering them and think about like ways that I wanna limit that at other times and then make choices about how to do that at any given time. But it’s really about like taking this as an opportunity to build those skills and strategies.
Karen Hawkins:
Ooh, there’s so much there , it’s . Like, oh, what do I even wanna ask about based on that? I just will say I appreciate that. I mean, I appreciate all the things you’re saying, but that this notion, I feel like it reminds me of like this, um, inclination we all have to cancel people for lack, right? Like, I’m just gonna cut you off entirely. Right. And I love what you’re saying that like life is nuanced and that you don’t have to let somebody totally in, but you can forgive them and decide not to engage about like, all right, we’re just not gonna talk about politics, we’re not gonna talk about race, we’re not gonna talk about whatever. And that you don’t, it doesn’t have to be this absolute. Um, so I appreciate that. The thing I also wanted to come back to was like what you said about accuracy also really struck me as somebody who works in journalism, who works in political journalism.
I will have a disclaimer before this about my views to not reflect the views of my employer, but like if you are listeners triggered by the news, if you are upset, if you are, that is on purpose. Like I think we, the three of us have talked about, like Rachel Maddow talks about the difference in the ratings when she talks like this and the difference than the ratings when she talks like this, like that people want to get, like they turn her on to get hyped up and like so much of this is manufactured and not that real things are happening, but that like so much of our reaction he had thrived during the romp administration thrived because of it. And so just really appreciate that point that like getting accuracy in your life is about perspective and that we don’t have a lot of it right now.
Dr. Tania Israel:
Yeah, that’s absolutely right. And I really appreciate your perspective as a journalist. And it turns out journalists actually tend to have a really skewed perspective about polarization also, like tend to think we’re more extreme and divided than we actually are. And so they represent that and then we eat it all up and then, you know, they, then they represent that even more it. And so it’s just this cycle and we are the consumers. We actually get to make decisions about what we consume and how and what we follow. And there’s so much positive stuff going on out there. It’s frustrating to me that we don’t hear more about the bridging movement, but I, I really want more journalists to know about that and to follow that and to amplify it because it’s giving people hope. And I get to go to this Zoom meeting once a month that has all of these people who are like creating resources and doing all these different things and I follow them on social media. So
Katie Morell:
Listeners, we’re here. We’ll be right there. Just one sec. .
Dr. Tania Israel:
Sorry, listeners, Tania has COVID, so just taking a moment to cough. Um, yeah, so, so these, um, so my social media feed is replete with like all of this positive stuff that’s happening, these organizations that are engaging people. And I think if everybody knew about that, they would just feel so much more optimistic, so much more hopeful.
Katie Morell:
I love that. Thank you for explaining that Tania. I would actually, I have so many questions, but I’d love to just zero in on the Bridging movement because the words bridging movement is new to me in this conversation. . Um, so can you talk at all about what some, like who some of, or the names I guess is what I’m trying to say, the names of some of these organizations. Um, I will definitely link all of them in the description of this podcast and also, um, the two podcasts that you, that you mentioned earlier, the um, hidden Brain in a braver way. But I would love to know some of the names of these organizations that you’re part of and what they’re doing. Like how are they also, um, kind of touching base with journalists? I wish journalists were actually writing about this stuff. I would love to know just anything that you can share in terms of the bridging movement.
Dr. Tania Israel:
Yeah, so the first thing everyone should do is go to listen first project.org and sign the Listen first pledge, which just says you’re gonna listen first. You’re not really committing to anything beyond that except when you, when you do that, you will sign up for their emails, which every Friday, listen, first Friday you will get a message from one of the partner organizations and you’ll get to hear more about what they’re doing. And it’s the most encouraging email of my, that shows up in my inbox all week. I love hearing about all the different organizations and what they’re doing. And yeah, there’s a Listen first coalition with over 500 organizations in it, there’s a national week of conversation that happens. There’s like events that are happening. There’s a thing called the Building Civic Bridges Act that is working its way through congress. It’s a bipartisan bill that’s going to create some funding and training so that like AmeriCorps volunteers can help to do bridge building work and so that, um, these organizations can get, get funding to continue to help to strengthen democracy and, and reduce the animosity that people are feeling across, across the political spectrum.
So all of these things are just helping our democracy and helping our country.
Karen Hawkins:
Tania, you are a saint for talking to us because I was so breathless during COVID. I didn’t wanna talk to anybody. So just like taking this pause to thank you so much for being with us. Seriously. Thank you Tanya. Thank you for doing this.
Dr. Tania Israel:
I’m so happy to be here. I’m just like, I’m not passing up this opportunity to talk to y’all and to talk to all of your listeners ’cause I’m so excited about this, about this work and, and really I’m so excited for this book to come out because I just hear people struggling so much and I just wanna get a resource into everybody’s hands. When I recorded the audio book, this was so great, the audio engineers who, you know, have to listen to me talk for hours and hours and hours at the end of it they were like, oh my gosh, this book is so great. Like it’s, I’m gonna recommend it to people. I learned so much and I’m like, wow, they’re not even people who came to it ’cause they’re interested in the topic, but they were really, anyway, it was such great feedback to get from them. It was lovely.
Karen Hawkins:
So, um, OK. I love all the resources I did wanna ask about something else, so, well, it’s a point I wanted to talk through with you. You know, we, when we were talking about resilience was this realization of like how much we’ve already gotten through. Like I feel like we tend to focus so much on like, you know, the next world war, which fine, but also, like, I’ll just say, and I have to be careful about how I say this, people, for instance, who feared the fall of Roe, right? That like it as it became more and more of a possibility, just that fear and that anxiety and all the things, and two years later what we’ve done, what what has been accomplished and it’s awful. Right? And like, I, I just feel like that to me is a, an example of like the worst thing happened. And look at, look at what this country has been capable of. I mean, especially women in non-binary people. That’s a whole other story, but like, right. So I don’t know if there’s anything else about resilience to, to say there.
Dr. Tania Israel:
So people are really worried about what’s gonna happen when I say I’m optimistic. Like I made this little video, like why I’m optimistic in 2024. And people were like, what are you nuts? People have such reactions to the stuff that I put out. Like, like I did a little thing about interdependence day, um, for like 4th of July week and I put it up on TikTok and someone was like, like, what is this like an onion satire? Like how can you be so positive about, you know, other Americans and are you not watching what’s going on? So I’m gonna just gonna say there is a lot of terrible stuff going on. Like, like it’s not that I don’t see that because it’s definitely there, but what are you gonna do? Like you’re gonna do what you can to keep the terrible things from happening and then you have to figure out, all right, well no matter what the outcome of all of these big things happening is gonna be what am I gonna do and be in that world. And I think that’s really the key is really like, like each of us empowering ourselves to, to have some agency within whatever sphere we can. And honestly, whe like our involvement in our communities, whether you are a literacy tutor or coaching soccer or you know, or picking up trash, you know, whatever you’re doing to make your community a better place is making the world a better place.
Katie Morell:
Wow. I mean mic drop right there. I mean, what, what am I doing to what am I going to do and be in that world? Thank you Tania for that question. I think that’s so incredibly impactful and really helps to help all of our listeners be more introspective about everything. And like the, the smallest things, like you say, pick up trash, it’s like that’s helping the world. Like, I mean, I just, it’s just, I’m just echoing what you said, but I think it’s just so, so incredibly inspiring and spot on. Um, you know, I’d love to also talk about like a situation actually that I was in over the weekend. And I would love to, um, I would love to get your take on maybe some, like in the moment response ideas for this type of situation. So I was at a dinner with close friends and um, it was a really nice dinner.
It was for a birthday and we were actually having, I’m like kind of like getting nervous talking about it actually. ’cause I, I don’t know how this is gonna come out, but basically, um, we were having a really nice conversation about just random stuff. It had nothing to do with politics, zero. And in the middle of the conversation, my friend across from me was like, Hey, I have a question for you guys. It was her and her husband and me and Tyler, and it was totally outta left field. And she was like, Hey, we’re thinking about leaving the US on for election day. We’re thinking about getting an Airbnb that week and going to Canada. And I just, I actually was speechless. Like I was, and they’re like, we, we have enough space. We were looking at this Airbnb, you guys can bring your dogs, whatever, would you guys be interested?
And it wasn’t like a pressure, some conversation and I just wanna make sure that I stress that these are like safe people in our lives. And so this, this, I wasn’t walking into this thinking there would be like a weird situation, but I felt very, um, I actually was totally speechless. I actually didn’t know what to say because I was like, uh, I mean, first off, sure, going to an Airbnb with them in Canada sounds nice, but also the whole premise. I was like, well what are you guys thinking? That’s kind of what I said. And so I like kind of turned it back on them and, and they’re like, we’re afraid to be in the US on election day. And this is not the first time I’ve heard this. There are people in my neighborhood who have built bunkers that are armed. I mean, I live in Oregon, so it’s not a huge surprise, but like I, I’m just, that are actually so scared for election day.
And this isn’t really a question about election day, it’s more a question about if you’re kind of blindsided by someone in your life, safe or unsafe in your life that says something that like you’re not prepared for. Like this is not, you’re not sitting down to have a, a political conversation. What can you say? I guess like, ’cause I just, I actually didn’t want to respond to that. Like, I, I didn’t know what to say. I think I just like deflected and moved on, but I, I, I was really kind of just taken aback by people that are so close to us in political views and el like, you know, otherwise saying something like that for me to, and I, I found it triggering and I was like, oh. Like, these people are so terrified and I don’t know how to diffuse that terror or not take it on or I just, it was just a weird scenario that I’ve never been in before. I love your opinion on that.
Dr. Tania Israel:
Yeah, I feel like we’re all getting into weird scenarios we’ve never been in before these days, right? And so sometimes people are saying something that you really disagree with politically or sometimes people are like, they’re totally aligned with you politically, but they’re having a different reaction to something. And it sounds like that’s what it was. I think whether we’re talking to people who sort of we see as our allies or our enemies or whatever it is, you took such a great approach to that, which was curiosity. You’re like, tell me what you’re thinking, what’s leading you to this? And I think those are some of the kinds of questions we can ask. Like, what are you listening to or paying attention to that’s, that’s really driving that feeling that you’re having or that motivation that you’re having. If somebody says something, you know, that you’re like, wow, like that doesn’t sound like something I would buy, you know, or I would buy into if I saw that, then you can always say something like, you know, tell me a little bit about like, what is it that makes you, um, believe that, um, or what is it that the, the meaning that that has for you.
And so I think we can just get curious and ask people to share more because honestly these conversations, even the conversations with people we agree with are sometimes even more, um, triggering than the ones with people we don’t agree with because people we don’t agree with, we might be able to write them off more easily or not care, but people with, we agree with, there’s all of this like, oh, did you see this? Oh my god, I know. That’s so terrible. Yes. And this is even worse. And it just, that’s kind of what the conversations are like. And so I think that the more we can get into like the, the meaning, the nuance, the what’s going on for you around this, like, like I, I think we can find out more. I think lean into curiosity.
Karen Hawkins:
It’s such a smart, it’s such a smart response and I don’t, I don’t know that my brain would’ve gone there. And I also wonder if it also helps the person like also process for themselves. Like it’s curiosity for you, but it’s also like getting somebody to walk through like the Hellman. Like why do I think that? Why do I, yeah, how did I land there? Um, OK, so, oh my gosh, Tania, our time with you is always too short. OK. We’ve said where, where people can pre-order the book. Um, I’m trying to do the list of all the things. So is there anything you would like to leave our listeners with other than obviously pre-ordering the book and signing up for the resources you mentioned. Is there anything else you’d like to leave people with? Also, assuming that we will talk to you at least one more time before the election.
Dr. Tania Israel:
Oh my gosh. I am, you know, please, please, please. Always happy to come back. Yes, yes. So one of the things that I’ve tried to do in the book, ’cause honestly I was like, I’m, I’m telling people to do a lot of things that aren’t necessarily what comes naturally to them. You know, like turning off social media, like all these things. So I thought, you know, I really need to give people something that’s gonna make them wanna do these things. Not just, oh, this is gonna help you to feel better. ’cause there are a lot of things that will help us to feel better that we don’t do. So I tried to include in here some stories, like some narratives that, that are gonna help people kind of connect into just an arc for themselves, like a, like a path. And I mean, I’m pulling on like the Wizard of Oz and Moana, like, I’m just drawing on like, everything that I could find that I was like, here’s something that seems to tap into things. Well, and as you all probably know, one of my favorite narratives is Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And yes,
Katie Morell:
Everything comes back to Buffy.
Dr. Tania Israel:
Everything comes back to Buffy. And so I’m, you know, I’m trying to decide right now. I’m like, OK, I could read you all the, the speech that I end the book with, um, which is, which is, um, from Buffy? Or is that too much of a spoiler alert? Like, um, what do you all think? Do you want it?
Katie Morell:
I mean, I think it’s a brilliant idea, Karen, what do you think?
Karen Hawkins:
Agreed. Because people aren’t gonna, it’s not like people are gonna, well maybe they will remember. It doesn’t matter. They’ll come to it in the end of the book and be like, ah, yes. And they’ll remember your voice reading it. Let’s do it. Let’s go for it. Let’s
Katie Morell:
Do it. OK. And then we’ll just sign off. So thank you Tania in advance. This is amazing. And I’ll just press end of the, um, you know, the podcast right after you’re finished. Thank you.
Dr. Tania Israel:
Thank you so much for having me here and I am gonna share with all of you, this is how I’m ending the book. “So here’s the part where you make a choice. What if you could have that power? Now I say my power should be our power from now on every girl in the world who might be a slayer, will be a slayer. Every girl who could have the power, will have the power, can stand up, will stand up. Slayers, every one of us. Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?”