Happy Monday, Listeners!
In today’s episode, Karen & Katie discuss rituals – how they are being performed right now (funerals, birthdays, you name it), the brain science behind them, & how creating daily rituals can help us stay mentally sane during this time. Karen shares the story of her pricey visit to the vet, Katie rants about a recent debacle at the DMV, & the pair muse about the power of daily affirmations to help us all feel better.
Thanks for listening – Enjoy!
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Katie: Hi, I’m Kamala Harris’ amazing sneaker collection.
Karen: Hi, I’m your friend who keeps making you masks that don’t fit.
Katie: You are listening to Of Course I’m Not Okay: The Podcast. Join us as we talk about mental health, coping with quarantine, and all the fun stuff that has to do with ill-fitting masks and really hot sneakers.
Karen: For some of our episodes, we’ll chat with writers, creatives, maybe some seamstresses, to get their take. Thank you for joining us on this journey.
Katie: Today’s episode is brought to you by the Thanksgiving leftovers that yes, they’re still in your refrigerator.
Karen: And no, you should not eat them.
Katie: Even though some of them might not have meat in them. If they have meat in them, please throw them away immediately. But if they don’t have meat in them, maybe some stuffing or green beans, it’s been too long. It’s ready for the compost.
Karen: And let’s be honest. You’re not going to repurpose that it’s over.
Katie: It’s over. Thank you, Thanksgiving leftovers for sponsoring this podcast and saving yourself from giving someone food poisoning.
Katie: Karen, it’s so wonderful to see you after a two week break. I never want to take a break again because I seriously think it’s been three months.
Karen: That’s exactly how I feel, Katie. And it’s so good to see you. And you popped up on the screen and I was like, okay, everything’s gonna be okay. I mean, we’re not okay, but it’s going to be okay for this next hour!
Katie: That’s exactly how I felt. I’m like, Oh my gosh, this is so nice and normal and fun and funny and all of the positive things. So yes, happy post-Thanksgiving-in-between-now-and-the-holiday-stretch. It’s just nice. It’s nice to touch base again. But yeah, I have to tell you that – not to dive into something negative, but I did experience a really awesomely, awesomely, awesomely, horrible experience at the DMV the other day.
Katie: And it was one of those that reminds me of our rage episode from so long ago because I really actually thought about the rage episode in the moment. So basically I’ll make it short, but I went to the DMV because I need an Oregon license. And I went there and I had forgotten I wanted to get my license plate also. So I needed the title and I only live five minutes away from the DMV. And so I had gone through 90 minutes of standing in line, followed by 45 minutes of sitting inside. I was actually okay with it. I’m like, whatever, this is me time. I’m having self-care at the DMV. Like, ‘I can just Instagram scroll and like, whatever I had totally blocked my calendar for this.’ No problem.
So I go up and I take the test for the license and all of that happens. And then I’m about to get my picture and be done with the whole thing. And they’re like, ‘Oh, you need a title for your license plate.’ Which of course I should’ve known, but I didn’t think of it before. And I was like, okay, I’ll just run back. So the woman at the counter was like, ‘Oh, here. Here’s a pass. Just come back and you can just skip the line. It’s no big deal because all you need is this tiny bit of paperwork and then you’re done.’ And I was like, Oh, that’s great. Really? And so I checked with two other people as I walked out, like, can I really jump the line again? And so I go home, I come back – seriously, six minutes later – and the guy at the front, the guy I had just seen who said it was okay was like, ‘Oh no, you should never have gotten this pass.’ And he ripped it up in front of my face.
Karen: Wait, wait, wait, wait. What?!
Katie: For real. It was one of those things that I was like, ‘is this happening?’ There were 35 people in line. It was probably 22 degrees outside. And he’s like, ‘You’re going to have to wait in line.’ And I was like, Oh. I thought he was mistaken. I had the same outfit on. I had a bright pink mask, not that he needs to remember me, but I seriously was there six minutes prior talking to him. And so I was like, Oh no, I just talk to you. What? I was speechless, and he’s like, ‘Do you want to talk to my supervisor?’ And at that point I was still getting mad and I was like, ‘yeah, but she’s not going to change anything.’ And I said that. I said it just like that, which definitely did not help my cause.
And so his supervisor came and she’s like – I also had spoken her with seven minutes prior – and she’s like, ‘Oh yeah, we can’t do anything about this.’ And I was like, what? I didn’t even understand what actually just happened? Like, am I in like an alternative universe? So anyway, I stand there in a line and I’m waiting for another 10 minutes behind 35 people. And it’s now getting to the point where it’s like 4 p.m. and I’m not even going to get to the front. And so anyway, I ended up going to my car and just skipping the experience and then getting in my car and rage-texting some friends, which honestly made me feel so much better.
One of my friends, I hope you’re listening, said that she hopes that guy steps in dog shit. And that’s the meanest thing that she can say. And I was like, I love you so much. Thank you. I also hope that guy stepped in dog shit. But also he probably has a really shitty job and people are mad at him all day and I’m trying to show him empathy, but at the moment I wasn’t showing him empathy. Anyway, the point of this story is that I was trying to make friends with my rage. And I can’t really say that that was successful, but I did make an appointment for mid-January and I’m going to go at 8 a.m. and I’m going to have everything in line, all of the documentation. Anyway, it was just one of those things that I was like, he has so much power-
Katie: that there truly was nothing for me to do. There was absolutely no way. I’m not going to charge into the DMV, then get arrested. Plus it’s locked because of COVID. So it’s the whole thing.
Karen: So, okay. Let’s start with I’m so sorry that happened to you. Like the DMV’s not bad enough! But you ‘re almost done.
Katie: Oh, I was like minutes. Also Karen, this is the worst part, I wore makeup.
Karen: I put on lipstick for this shit!
Katie: I put on eyeliner. My hair looked less than horrible and like, Oh my gosh. I mean, I had worn a really cute sweater for my picture. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a whole thing. Mhm. Yeah. I was so mad.
Karen: I’m enraged of course, on your behalf, and what it’s also bringing up for me, unfortunately. I hate the Karen phenomenon. As a black lady named Karen, it’s a fucking nightmare for me. I just hate it.
Karen: But I will say, I do wish you’d gone full Karen on that guy. You know what, don’t you know who I am? I just wish you had just launched into this, ‘Yeah, I want to talk to your supervisor and I wanna talk to her supervisor! You’re going to bring the Secretary of State of Oregon out here to talk to me!’ Like I just, I don’t know.
Katie: Yeah. Get Governor Kate Brown right here, stat!
Karen: I’ll wait.
Katie: I’ll wait. You know what’s so funny, is that’s exactly what Tyler said when I came home. He was so mad. And he’s like, ‘If you had sounded elitist, you would have been a Karen.’ And I was like, well I’m not going to sound elitist, I’m just mad and stewing and just sending him really negative thoughts. You know, like basically daggers from my eyes. He couldn’t, I don’t think he could feel them. Maybe he could, I don’t know, energetically.
Karen: I hope that guy is there when you go in January though, and you can just kill him with kindness. Like, ‘Hi. Well you look great today.’.
Katie: You look amazing. You just beam positivity. He probably won’t even know who I am. Ugh. I should have a little sign on my mask that says, You Fucked Me Over Six Weeks Five Days Ago in Four Minutes, But I’m Being Really Nice To You Right Now. So smile, super creepy like Joker from Batman Returns.
Karen: In a mask that says like Government Employees Suck. Not really, I love government employees. I’m just kidding, I was one of them, but yeah.
Karen: Being passive aggressive on your mask could really go a long way.
Katie: At least for my own sanity.
Karen: Today’s episode of Of Course I’m Not Okay: The Podcast is brought to you by your 2021 vision board. It doesn’t mean anything. And in fact, this is also a message to everyone who’s trying to get Katie and I to plan things for 2021. We’re not planning shit.
Katie: Yes. I’m specifically talking to Chase Bank because you do not allow me to refund my nonrefundable airline tickets, and now I have $800 as you say, waiting for me to book new tickets, but here’s the thing. I’m not going to book new tickets. So Chase, I’m really not super excited about booking new tickets. I have some feelings and you’re one of those people, organizations trying to make me plan for 2021. And so I’m not super happy with you.
Karen: Though we would welcome your support if you want to sponsor this podcast or support us as a small woman owned business.
Katie: Then I would love you and I’ll change my tune immediately. Thank you for sponsoring this podcast.
Karen: I believe I started our catch-up section of this call talking about feeling crazy because I had this really long, stressful day. I’ve been in a lot of Zoom meetings this week. I had a bunch of them stacked up today, which is never fun on a Friday. And I looked down and my cat was yelling at the litter box.
Katie: Oh my gosh, that’s so scary.
Karen: Like not yelling at me, not yelling at her sister, literally sitting in front of the litter box just yelling at it. And I was like, huh. You know, Jackson Galaxy has never addressed this on Cat From Hell, but I’m pretty sure this is not a good thing. Long story short, one vet visit and $800 later-
Katie: $800 that you were not like-
Karen: $800 just-
Katie: You didn’t wake up today thinking, I’m going to spend $800 and be really fucking chipper about it.
Karen: On the cat. $800 on the cat. I hope she’s okay. Obviously, you know, it’s one of those things where they call, you know you can’t go in the vet now so this is all over the phone. I’m sitting outside of the vet on a bench, freezing my ass off. And the vet is talking to me and it’s like a car estimate. You have to approve all of these levels of things. So am I going to tell her not to do the x-ray or the blood work or whatever it is they’re doing to my cat, the oil change? I don’t know.
Katie: Oh my God.
Karen: What pet owner’s like, ‘Yeah, No, no, no, no, no. I rushed her here in an hour, but definitely don’t run any tests.’.
Katie: And definitely not any of those elective tests that are hardly even on the receipts. Like when you go to the mechanic and they’re like, ‘We needed to change your wiper blades twice in 30 minutes and that’s going to be 600 bucks.’ Like, yeah. Ugh, I’m so sorry. That’s so scary. When it comes to pets and it’s like, we love them so much, we’ll do anything. I’ve been there. Emergency vets are, you can’t get out without less than 250. That’s $250.
Karen: No, no. Flopsy, that’s my nickname for this cat. Flopsy is my $800 special. I have never been to the vet with that cat and it’s cost me less than $800. So.
Katie: Ugh. Oh my gosh. Fingers crossed she’s okay.
Karen: Yeah, thank you.
Katie: And that $800 was totally worth every penny. And she will be living a much longer life. Maybe she’ll even make the Guinness Book of World Records as being a 35-year-old cat in perfect health. I always think about that with my dog. I’m like, you’re going to be the one that’s going to live forever.
Karen: Exactly. And then you can run for president.
Katie: Yes, exactly. That’s always what I think. I’ll be my dog’s VP.
Katie: Pretty much. My dog has a lot of opinions so she would definitely do some stuff. When it comes to healthcare. She actually cannot get pet insurance anymore because she has pre-existing conditions. That’s real. It’s not really that funny. Cause she had two ACL surgeries several years ago. Oh yeah. Talk about money. Oh man. I can’t even tell you how much that was.
Karen: From her pro football career? Like what is she doing?
Katie: She did. She was actually the linebacker and she was throwing a pass on the 50-yard line and she just fucking slammed into-, no. Instead the version of the beagle version was she was running on a beach and twisted her leg, and actually apparently beagles are predisposed to a lot of shitty things like ACL busts and you know, separation anxiety. Anyway, she’s a very high maintenance dog that takes a lot of brain drugs and we love her for it. It works for her. But on a totally different topic. I did want to talk today about something that, I mean, there’s like a sad version of this and then there’s happy versions of this. And I think it touches so much of our lives, but the topic that I’m so excited to talk with you about is rituals.
The reason I want to bring this up is because I have a close friend who lost someone close to them and it was not expected. This person went to a virtual, like a Zoom funeral the other day. And it was one of those things where they told me, ‘Oh, you know, this funeral was actually really beautiful. It was incredibly well done.’ But then this person shut their computer off and they were still in their PJ’s in their kitchen. So it was the lack of like in-person rituals.
And what’s interesting that really brings this home for me, is that a couple of years ago-, So basically the story is, is that in August of 2017, my grandmother who I was very close with passed away. When she passed away, because of where my family lives all over the country and how often we get together, which is only once a year, we decided not to get together for her memorial service for an entire year. And it kind of made sense. It made sense in the moment, but it was weird because basically the following year after her death – I think it would have been hard no matter what – but it was really hard for me. I was massively on the struggle bus because I missed her, but also I didn’t really realize how much a ritual would have been helpful in that scenario. Basically what happened was, by the time a year had gone by, and we did the in-person memorial service in 2018 and my entire family was there and it was a whole thing. It was a full week of celebrating her life. The craziest thing happened, Karen, like it was seriously, I was not expecting at all.
So first off I elected to speak at the funeral. It was in this small church and we did the whole funeral service. I was, you know, pretty much inconsolable the entire time cause she was a singer, and so there was actual recordings of her singing. I had not heard her voice. It was a lot, but it was also really beautiful. Anyway. And so the craziest thing happened, which was, I was walking out of the church, physically walking out of the church and I put one step over the threshold of the church. It was almost like, I don’t want to say a bolt of lightning, but it was like something changed in my brain. Something happened because of that ritual. It was a before and after moment for me. I was able to breathe easier. I was able to sleep better. It was actually like a very significant change. It was not just like, ‘Oh, I feel better today because I’m around my family.’ It was months and now, years after, I can actually tell the difference psychologically between then and now. It was so profound that I came home, because this was in Michigan where I’m from, and I ended up doing a ton of research on the brain science of rituals and I ended up writing about it. It turns out that, of course there’s a ton of brain science behind the power of rituals. This goes back to the beginning of time for humans, and you know, this is what religion is based in and all of that. But anyway, it’s just interesting right now, because I feel like our rituals, this funeral is one example but there are many examples. What does this mean right now? Can we have the same impact with rituals right now? Or anyway, that’s on my mind.
Karen: Wow. That’s such a powerful experience. Just seeing you talk about it, I can feel the, yeah like something shifts. It just feels like, yeah. It’s just a palpable shift.
Katie: Yes, exactly. Yes. I mean, I’m not a religious person either. Maybe people who are religious have these experiences all the time and they get it and they’re like, ‘Okay, the before and after of whatever religious experience.’ But yeah, I had never experienced anything like that. And it just brings up a lot of questions around, what are rituals right now?
Karen: Yeah. And also the social aspect, too, of a funeral. It’s not just the saying goodbye and whatever the ritual is around the funeral service itself. But in the black community, we have repass and you go and you sit in the church basement and you eat the same rubber chicken off of paper plates. You know, you drink the sugary punch, right? There’s a ritual of sitting around reminiscing about the person in a very loose way that’s like not the structure of a service and yeah, over Zoom you’re not going to get that. Unless you set it up separately, I guess.
Katie: Hey Karen!
Karen: Hey Katie.
Katie: You know, what’s the best news that I have heard since the election, other than the fact that Joe Biden is going to be president and Kamala Harris is going to be VP? It’s the fact that probably on almost a daily basis, Trump is getting deeply disappointed by judges throwing out his bullshit cases.
Karen: I mean, it really is the gift that keeps on giving, watching him lose. Over and over and over and over and over again.
Katie: Which is why I am so happy that today’s episode is brought to you by the judges that keep kicking those stupid lawsuits to the curb. Thank you judges for helping me sleep at night. You basically have been my melatonin for the past three and a half weeks.
Karen: Thank you for sponsoring this podcast.
Katie: So yes, to your point about this being weird on Zoom, that was actually something that my friend had mentioned. I mean, she went to this funeral and it was a beautiful experience. And then, she was like, ‘Well, okay, now I’m in my PJ’s in my living room crying. And what actually would have been really helpful is if there were breakout rooms, cause I know Zoom can make breakout rooms, for more people to just talk. If it’s even four people in a breakout room or two people in a breakout room. It would just be so nice to have something like that.’ And I really love that suggestion. And I actually wonder if anyone listening has had the same experience. I know that, funerals in particular, are just so incredibly heartbreaking to be doing virtually. I have not yet had that experience – knock on wood – to go to a funeral virtually. But I would imagine that that would probably help a lot just to connect.
I know I’ve spoken a previous episode about this beautiful ceremony that I went to that was an adoption ceremony and that was a ritual. And so it was like, ‘Okay, it was very ritualistic in terms of the judge being there and the girl that was being adopted by my friend, she’s three. And it was very beautiful. And I felt, even though I was in my office watching this, I did feel connected. I kind of think it gives me hope. The fact that there’s Zoom at all. I mean, I can’t imagine 1918 when the flu is hitting the U.S. and the world. I can’t imagine how many people didn’t have any idea of how to do a ritual. They literally couldn’t go anywhere outside of their house or neighborhood or whatever. I mean, at least we have this.
Karen: And I did go to a wedding. We talked about, you know, a WebEx wedding and that was really meaningful and odd, you know, but also really sweet. And you’re right, it did give me hope. And I really also am very aware that had they done that in person, I don’t know how many of us could have come. There were people from LA and London and all over the world really on this WebEx wedding and the ceremony. And yeah, could we have done that in person? I don’t know. How many people can travel? Not everybody has your $800 travel voucher trapped by Chase, right?
Katie: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Totally. No, it’s so true. So there is beauty in the fact that we can still at least try to have rituals. I mean, one of the things that I learned in the research that I did a couple of years ago around the brain science of rituals was that in-person is the thing that’s like so helpful. It’s the one thing that’s the hallmark of a really effective ritual. And so with the absence of that, I still believe that we can do rituals. But it also makes me wonder. I don’t know, I’ve never actually tried this, but it makes me wonder if there was something that I really wanted to commemorate or honor or memorialize, like maybe I could try to do a ritual by myself. It’s not a communal thing, but I wonder if that would be effective. Like, writing a letter to this person that passed away and then burning it and then walking around a beautiful hiking path? I don’t know. It’s just something that you could try.
Karen: I mean, I think that’s what – neither of us is religious – but I feel like that’s what prayer is for people. It’s the ritual of it, and it’s the generating of a certain kind of energy. I feel like that’s what meditation does for people. I’m thinking about this story about your grandmother. And I feel like it was an energy shift. There were something about the energy you had been carrying for that year that you needed to shift in a different way. And I feel like when I think about rituals, that’s what I think about. You’re generating a certain kind of energy and I know it’s super woo-woo, but I believe in that shit and I’m not afraid of it.
Katie: Yes. I’m not afraid of it either. Actually it reminds me of – I have not thought about this for a long time – but this was probably four, maybe five years ago. I went to a yoga retreat and there was a labyrinth on the ground. So, for people who’ve never been to a yoga retreat, it’s basically like a bunch of rocks that you walk around in a circle and at certain yoga centers or just meditation centers, they’ll have them. And I had this thing where I had talked to my therapist previous to me going to this retreat. And there was something that was really, really bothering me. And it was kind of one of those reoccurring dream situations and also just things that did not go away in my mind. And so my therapist recommended that I write down pretty much everything that I was feeling and then walk. She knew that this retreat center was going to have a labyrinth and I would walk around basically with this piece of paper and then burn it at the end.
Okay. Here’s the crazy part, Karen. So I was like, what? I was very new to labyrinths or any of this stuff. And I did it. I’m not joking. I used to think about whatever I was trying to get rid of. I mean, it was so frequent that it was almost a daily thing. Now I’ve probably thought about it five times in five years.
Katie: And I don’t know. It was because I was moving my body. There was something physiological with it. What was kind of funny was that, this retreat center was so deep in the woods, they wouldn’t allow burning anywhere. I couldn’t use a match, like nothing. And so I was like, dammit. So I ripped it up and thought about it burning, and then it was in a trash can, whatever. Anyway, the point is – this is now too many details – but it did actually change. That thing that I thought about is still very disturbing to me, but at the same time, it doesn’t have the same power.
Katie: So I guess people can do rituals by themselves.
Karen: Yeah. I absolutely think you can. I think it’s about the intention of it.
Katie: Yes. Yes. That’s a really good point because I think that if I was kind of like, eh, this is weird. I think I’m going to try this thing my therapist said, and then just be like, ‘well, did that work?’ I actually was fully there. I was like, ‘Okay, I’m fucking doing this. I’m for real buying into this.’ And I think that’s what you said, it’s the intentionality. That’s really the only reason why it mattered.
Karen: It’s interesting cause I wonder. I think there are some things that are powerful enough that will work, even if you think it’s bullshit at the time. I’m talking to you, people who don’t think you should be in therapy or don’t want to go to therapy or afraid of therapy, or keep putting it off. Go and sit there and think that it’s bullshit, and I will guarantee you it will still help you.
Karen: I mean, not as much as it helps those of us who actually really value it and believe in it, but I think eventually you will come around. Yeah, you can sit there and be cynical and pay somebody to be cynical with you. But I do think it will still help you.
Katie: Yes. That is such a strong message. Cause you don’t have to be sitting in a Lotus position levitating for five hours a day to be like, ‘Oh, you know what? Now is the time for me to go to therapy. Now is the time for me to try this ritual that I think might actually help me or do whatever.’ Just try it. you can be as cynical as hell and just do it and then be like, well, that was dumb. But whatever, you might not think it’s dumb. There might be a little tiny voice in your head that’s like, ‘Thank you for helping me cause that was actually really meaningful.’ You know?
Karen: Is the little boy, is it a mouse?
Katie: It sounds like a mouse. Its name is Fievel. Dating myself here with an American Tale reference-,
Katie: But you’re welcome, children of the eighties.
Karen: Relatable content. That’s what we’re doing here. Related content.
Katie: We are.
Karen: Today’s episode of Of Course I’m Not Okay: The Podcast is brought to you by Rebellious Magazine. No, no, I know you’ve never heard of it. It’s okay. It’s fine. Listen, it’s at rebelliousmagazine.com. It’s a feminist magazine was founded by a mouthy black lesbian. And if you give a shit about mouthy Black lesbians, you should read it and you should send us money. Rebelliousmagazine.com.
Katie: Don’t miss it. Check it today.
Katie: I was having a conversation with a friend yesterday who he has, like all of us, been working from home since May. Since April? Or, what other month is like one month? Since March. Anyway, speaking of time, total construct. Anyway. So he was telling me about something that he developed, that he just made it up and he put it in his notes. And basically what it is, is a list of the things that make him feel good. And it’s a big list. It’s like, I don’t know, 40 things. And one of them is going for a walk. Another one is doing a spa mask type of thing that you can just get at the drugstore. Another thing is just doing a meditation. And it’s really interesting to me because he intentionally made this list, and every day he will put an emoji heart next to the things that he’s done. And he’s like, ‘If I don’t have at least 20 hearts per day,’ I mean, this is very intense. But at the same time, he’s made it such a ritualistic thing that it doesn’t actually feel that hard. It’s almost as if he’s made it. I love this idea so much because the process of making a list like that makes you think about the things that make you feel good. And then if you’re putting a heart – you erase the hearts the next day, and then you put new hearts – it’s just this positive reinforcement of rituals that will at least help you. I absolutely love that idea. I think it’s brilliant.
Karen: I think that is a genius idea and I am sure it is changing his brain chemistry. He is firing different neurons in different parts of his brain. That is absolutely helping him physiologically. I guarantee it.
Katie: Totally. And he even told me, ‘The days that I don’t feel so good,’ sometimes work will just be insane and he’s like, ‘I will realize that I forgot to do my heart list’ or whatever he calls it. And he’ll look back on the list and he’ll have done two things instead of 20. The 20 things, it doesn’t mean that you have six hours a day to dedicate to a bath. It could be just eating a granola bar that you love or whatever it is. Stuff that you feel good about. It could be something very small that takes one second. I strive to be the person that follows in his lead because I think it would be good for me to even make a list like that. Even if I don’t do the hard thing.
Karen: One of my favorite podcasts [RIP] was Another Round. It was a Buzzfeed podcast and they always ended it was like, drink some water, check in with your people, go to therapy. There was this list of things. It’s exactly like that. It was like that, but it was more of a like, Are you feeling shitty? Go drink some water. Remember to do these self care things. I love that.
Katie: Yes. That was like the end of each podcast episode? Like they would?
Karen: I’m so going to get dragged by people who can rattle this off, but yes: Drink some water. Take your meds. Call your person.
Katie: Hmm. That’s beautiful.
Karen: So good.
Katie: It’s so good. I would only add rest. If you can rest.
Karen: Wow, yeah.
Katie: Even if it’s on the floor of wherever you’re standing, if it’s a private place or safe. Just lay down.
Karen: Or the floor of the DMV. Oh my God.
Katie: Can you imagine? If I was just like, I’m going to take a little break, and maybe he would have been like, ‘Oh, I’m sorry that I ripped that in front of your face. You can now get your picture taken.’ I’ll probably have cried too much. My eyeliner would have ran, but whatever. It’s a good thought.
Karen: Worth it. That license would have been a souvenir of the time that you having a meltdown got you your way.
Katie: You’re so right. Next time I will just splay out in the middle of the DMV. I mean, there’s a lot of space. I will give them credit. It is very socially distant in that room. But oh God, I would have had plenty of room. I could have done a full-on fucking snow angel in the middle of the DMV. And they would have, no one would have touched me. It would have been so healthy. Next time.
Karen: Next time.
Karen: January is another chance. Your time to shine.
Katie: I’ll keep you posted. Listeners, make sure to tune in. I might be doing some snow angels in the middle of DMV in Bend, Oregon. So watch out for newsfeeds on that because there might be some crazy lady stories that come out. Who knows.
Karen: I mean, my first newspaper job, we used to joke. Don’t become local brief. Always the advice used to give each other, and I feel like.
Katie: That’s so real. That’s so real. Yeah.
Katie: That’s so real. Oh my gosh. Well, it’s so good to see you, Karen. This is always so fun and I’ll see you next week. Yay.